Has anyone else noticed that the 8800NL stops requiring a logon and password after a period? I haven't established a clear pattern but after a reboot and perhaps 10-12 logins the logon panel stops appearing. Clicking the desktop icon or connecting to http://192.168.1.254 takes you straight in.
This behaviour persists until the next restart.
John
8800NL stops requiring logon?
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gatekeeper
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Re: 8800NL stops requiring logon?
Hmm, this is most interesting. I appreciate that the kind of logging in to which you refer is the one where the operating system pops on to the screen a user authorisation caption when you type in the router's local IP address and therefore wish to access its configuration pages. I have to confess that, using both a Mac and a Windows machine at various times with the 8800NL, I've to date never noticed that particular login error situation, even when first commissioning/configuring my 8800NL and therefore using that interface a lot. But users of the 8800NL should note that, unlike with some previous Billion models, once you're logged into the router, there's no requirement to manually log out, and instead logging out happens automatically when instead you switch to a Web IP address. Could it be that this mechanism isn't quite 100%?
As it happens, I myself have been experiencing mysteriously-occurring connections to the router on the computer's side (no, not a trojan), but mine are 'logins' of a different kind to the one involved in your case. Mine are mere enablements of the Ethernet connection, rather than the opening up of the router's configuration interface. That's to say, for a long time now, my Mac has had the habit of mysteriously coming out of its sleep mode (but without the screen coming back), eg. it happening when I'm away from the Mac or overnight, and connecting to the 8800NL all by itself (I use one of the wired Ethernet connections). The Mac appears to re-enable the port connection. Finding this, I usually just use the mouse to bring the Mac back fully out of sleep mode, then immediately put the Mac back to sleep. This automatically terminates the connection with the 8800NL, and then all is well ........ until the next time it happens, which is (it seems) unpredictable.
I use my machine and the Web daily, putting the Mac back into sleep mode whenever I've finished a session of work, and then resuming later. The 'malfunction' occurs about twice a week, I'd say. I say 'malfunction' advisedly, because the sleep mode on the Mac is a special state - although the connection with the 8800NL gets automatically turned off when the Mac is put into sleep mode, the Mac itself is designed to be still up and running and merely left in a low-power, blanked-screen state. It's unclear as to whether, in the sleep state, the Mac is supposed to retain control of the Ethernet interface with the router.
I've pursued this bug/malfunction of mine endlessly, looking for instances where I might have left a setting such as 'wake on LAN' enabled or mistakenly have left an app active, but have found absolutely nothing. This used to happen with the Billion 7800 too, the router I had before the 8800NL. Personally, I find it a bit concerning as to security. But you've now made me wonder whether this could be being caused by a problem in the 8800NL - maybe a bit of firmware that was copied from that of the 7800 models but which wasn't quite right. And perhaps my issue might somehow be linked with yours, in as much as both involve what appears to be non-authorised automatic access to the router - to the 8800's configuration in your case, and to the Web in mine.
Normally, with the sort of symptoms you yourself have described, my first reaction would be that it must be being caused by your computer's operating system - probably a bug in the browser software - but like I say, I now wonder whether there might actually be a bug in the 8800NL itself, rather than in the attached computer.
It'd be interesting to hear from you whether you happen to be using your computer in some sort of sleep mode, and what that machine is - a Windows machine, a Mac, or whatever. And for the browser, are you using the default browser that comes with your particular operating system, or instead a different one? Have you noticed whether the problem occurs if a second or different machine is used with the 8800NL?
Afterthought: Sorry to waffle on but just had a thought. What happens if you log in to the 8800 in the usual way but then switch to doing something completely non-Web related, such as running a utility or an app? That's to say, you don't then immediately switch to the Web. Is the GUI of the router still effectively open but simply not visible on the screen? (I must go and try this). This begs the question as to what precisely it is that logs you out of the router. I've always assumed it's the selecting of a page on the Web, ie. selecting a website/webpage in the browser address field, rather than the local address of the router. But perhaps the router's firmware doesn't work quite like that?
Just tried it. The question is sorta self-answering and kinda obvious, really. If you open an app, the router's interface remains active and visible. The router's interface disappears only if you use the browser to go to somewhere on the Web. To exit from the router's interface, unlike with most previous routers, you're not required to manually log out of the 8800, and instead the router interface is exited by you selecting a web address (any address with the 'www'). So, if your observation is more widespread in reality, it'd raise the question as to whether the automatic clearing down of the router interface always works correctly, or whether on occasions a stored image of it gets retained and immediately reverted to when you next type in 192.168.1.254, without going through the authorisation process.
As it happens, I myself have been experiencing mysteriously-occurring connections to the router on the computer's side (no, not a trojan), but mine are 'logins' of a different kind to the one involved in your case. Mine are mere enablements of the Ethernet connection, rather than the opening up of the router's configuration interface. That's to say, for a long time now, my Mac has had the habit of mysteriously coming out of its sleep mode (but without the screen coming back), eg. it happening when I'm away from the Mac or overnight, and connecting to the 8800NL all by itself (I use one of the wired Ethernet connections). The Mac appears to re-enable the port connection. Finding this, I usually just use the mouse to bring the Mac back fully out of sleep mode, then immediately put the Mac back to sleep. This automatically terminates the connection with the 8800NL, and then all is well ........ until the next time it happens, which is (it seems) unpredictable.
I use my machine and the Web daily, putting the Mac back into sleep mode whenever I've finished a session of work, and then resuming later. The 'malfunction' occurs about twice a week, I'd say. I say 'malfunction' advisedly, because the sleep mode on the Mac is a special state - although the connection with the 8800NL gets automatically turned off when the Mac is put into sleep mode, the Mac itself is designed to be still up and running and merely left in a low-power, blanked-screen state. It's unclear as to whether, in the sleep state, the Mac is supposed to retain control of the Ethernet interface with the router.
I've pursued this bug/malfunction of mine endlessly, looking for instances where I might have left a setting such as 'wake on LAN' enabled or mistakenly have left an app active, but have found absolutely nothing. This used to happen with the Billion 7800 too, the router I had before the 8800NL. Personally, I find it a bit concerning as to security. But you've now made me wonder whether this could be being caused by a problem in the 8800NL - maybe a bit of firmware that was copied from that of the 7800 models but which wasn't quite right. And perhaps my issue might somehow be linked with yours, in as much as both involve what appears to be non-authorised automatic access to the router - to the 8800's configuration in your case, and to the Web in mine.
Normally, with the sort of symptoms you yourself have described, my first reaction would be that it must be being caused by your computer's operating system - probably a bug in the browser software - but like I say, I now wonder whether there might actually be a bug in the 8800NL itself, rather than in the attached computer.
It'd be interesting to hear from you whether you happen to be using your computer in some sort of sleep mode, and what that machine is - a Windows machine, a Mac, or whatever. And for the browser, are you using the default browser that comes with your particular operating system, or instead a different one? Have you noticed whether the problem occurs if a second or different machine is used with the 8800NL?
Afterthought: Sorry to waffle on but just had a thought. What happens if you log in to the 8800 in the usual way but then switch to doing something completely non-Web related, such as running a utility or an app? That's to say, you don't then immediately switch to the Web. Is the GUI of the router still effectively open but simply not visible on the screen? (I must go and try this). This begs the question as to what precisely it is that logs you out of the router. I've always assumed it's the selecting of a page on the Web, ie. selecting a website/webpage in the browser address field, rather than the local address of the router. But perhaps the router's firmware doesn't work quite like that?
Just tried it. The question is sorta self-answering and kinda obvious, really. If you open an app, the router's interface remains active and visible. The router's interface disappears only if you use the browser to go to somewhere on the Web. To exit from the router's interface, unlike with most previous routers, you're not required to manually log out of the 8800, and instead the router interface is exited by you selecting a web address (any address with the 'www'). So, if your observation is more widespread in reality, it'd raise the question as to whether the automatic clearing down of the router interface always works correctly, or whether on occasions a stored image of it gets retained and immediately reverted to when you next type in 192.168.1.254, without going through the authorisation process.
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segillum
- Posts: 10
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Re: 8800NL stops requiring logon?
@gatekeeper -- many thanks for the reply, which has given me food for thought.
It'd be interesting to hear from you whether you happen to be using your computer in some sort of sleep mode, and what that machine is - a Windows machine, a Mac, or whatever. And for the browser, are you using the default browser that comes with your particular operating system, or instead a different one? Have you noticed whether the problem occurs if a second or different machine is used with the 8800NL
The machine connected directly to the 8800NL is a Dell Dimension E520 with a Core2Duo 6600 2.4GHz CPU and 4GB of RAM running fully patched Win7 Home Premium. It's on 24/7 and there's nothing unusual about the power management as far as I'm aware. The browser is the default IE11 with pretty much default settings. No other computer in the LAN has router access.
I've tried various permutations of exiting from the 8800NL screen and going to different Web addresses, different apps and even rebooting the machine but none of this brings the logon requirement back. The only way to do that seems to be by rebooting the router. From a security point of view I find that rather worrying.
I have noticed one or two other slightly flaky features about the 8800NL's firmware. For example, static IP addresses don't always 'stick'. I have a Wi-Fi extender which is allocated a static IP address of 192.168.1.76 but every now and then it randomly appears in the DHCP list as 192.168.1.100. It may or may not re-acquire its static IP address after a day or two. The log doesn't always reflect this situation and sometimes doesn't seem to refresh for lengthy periods.
All part of life's rich pattern, I guess. And I'm very happy with the 8800NL despite its quirks although I wish its Wi-Fi range was better.
John
John
It'd be interesting to hear from you whether you happen to be using your computer in some sort of sleep mode, and what that machine is - a Windows machine, a Mac, or whatever. And for the browser, are you using the default browser that comes with your particular operating system, or instead a different one? Have you noticed whether the problem occurs if a second or different machine is used with the 8800NL
The machine connected directly to the 8800NL is a Dell Dimension E520 with a Core2Duo 6600 2.4GHz CPU and 4GB of RAM running fully patched Win7 Home Premium. It's on 24/7 and there's nothing unusual about the power management as far as I'm aware. The browser is the default IE11 with pretty much default settings. No other computer in the LAN has router access.
I've tried various permutations of exiting from the 8800NL screen and going to different Web addresses, different apps and even rebooting the machine but none of this brings the logon requirement back. The only way to do that seems to be by rebooting the router. From a security point of view I find that rather worrying.
I have noticed one or two other slightly flaky features about the 8800NL's firmware. For example, static IP addresses don't always 'stick'. I have a Wi-Fi extender which is allocated a static IP address of 192.168.1.76 but every now and then it randomly appears in the DHCP list as 192.168.1.100. It may or may not re-acquire its static IP address after a day or two. The log doesn't always reflect this situation and sometimes doesn't seem to refresh for lengthy periods.
All part of life's rich pattern, I guess. And I'm very happy with the 8800NL despite its quirks although I wish its Wi-Fi range was better.
John
John
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gatekeeper
- Posts: 167
- Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 4:45 pm
Re: 8800NL stops requiring logon?
First, I've had another thought. The scenario about which I've been raising questions is one where you open a fresh browser window each time, each successive window completely replacing the next. But what happens to the GUI of the router if instead you select for multiple browser windows or tabs to be open? Does the router's GUI (browser inteface) still remain visibly open?
As for the 'flaky' features, it sounds to me as though you've possibly made a configuring error. If you're using static IP addressing on the LAN side of things, then it's best to turn off DHCP altogether, as otherwise there's a risk that you might set up an address that'll already be in the normal DHCP range (192.168.1.100 - 199). If that were to happen, your fixed address(es) would come up as usable only periodically, ie. there'd be a kind of conflict going on. When using static addressing, I've found it best to choose the static addresses to be well outside the DHCP normal range but of course still within the sub-address - which I think you've done. I'd suggest that, if you truly are using static addressing throughout, then in the router you go to Configuration > LAN. There, temporarily enable DHCP Server. This allows access to a group of other settings in which I suggest you disable 'Use router as DNS server' (doing this assumes that you use your ISP's DNS server instead, as shown in Status > WAN). In Configuration > LAN the IP address and submask at the top should be the 192.168.1.254 address. Now, back on the Configuration> LAN > Parameters page, set DHCP Server to disabled. In Advanced Setup > DNS > Parameters, check that you've chosen 'Use the following static DNS IP addresses and that they're your ISP's DNS addresses.
Hope that helps a bit.
As for the 'flaky' features, it sounds to me as though you've possibly made a configuring error. If you're using static IP addressing on the LAN side of things, then it's best to turn off DHCP altogether, as otherwise there's a risk that you might set up an address that'll already be in the normal DHCP range (192.168.1.100 - 199). If that were to happen, your fixed address(es) would come up as usable only periodically, ie. there'd be a kind of conflict going on. When using static addressing, I've found it best to choose the static addresses to be well outside the DHCP normal range but of course still within the sub-address - which I think you've done. I'd suggest that, if you truly are using static addressing throughout, then in the router you go to Configuration > LAN. There, temporarily enable DHCP Server. This allows access to a group of other settings in which I suggest you disable 'Use router as DNS server' (doing this assumes that you use your ISP's DNS server instead, as shown in Status > WAN). In Configuration > LAN the IP address and submask at the top should be the 192.168.1.254 address. Now, back on the Configuration> LAN > Parameters page, set DHCP Server to disabled. In Advanced Setup > DNS > Parameters, check that you've chosen 'Use the following static DNS IP addresses and that they're your ISP's DNS addresses.
Hope that helps a bit.
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segillum
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:45 am
Re: 8800NL stops requiring logon?
First, I've had another thought. The scenario about which I've been raising questions is one where you open a fresh browser window each time, each successive window completely replacing the next. But what happens to the GUI of the router if instead you select for multiple browser windows or tabs to be open? Does the router's GUI (browser inteface) still remain visibly open?
Yes, certainly in my case.
As for the 'flaky' features, it sounds to me as though you've possibly made a configuring error. If you're using static IP addressing on the LAN side of things, then it's best to turn off DHCP altogether, as otherwise there's a risk that you might set up an address that'll already be in the normal DHCP range (192.168.1.100 - 199).
Ah. Firstly I must confess to being a long way from being well versed in the finer points of networking. I'm the proverbial intelligent layman
I set up all the devices normally used in the office on the LAN with static addresses in the range 192.168.1.60-90. I left the DHCP server enabled and using the default addresses from 192.168.1.100 upwards so that one or two dongles I occasionally use around the office and elsewhere can talk to the network as required but also be usable on other networks where I guessed a static IP address I'd assigned might conflict with something else. Is this the wrong approach and is there a better way along the lines you suggested?
Many thanks,
John
Yes, certainly in my case.
As for the 'flaky' features, it sounds to me as though you've possibly made a configuring error. If you're using static IP addressing on the LAN side of things, then it's best to turn off DHCP altogether, as otherwise there's a risk that you might set up an address that'll already be in the normal DHCP range (192.168.1.100 - 199).
Ah. Firstly I must confess to being a long way from being well versed in the finer points of networking. I'm the proverbial intelligent layman
I set up all the devices normally used in the office on the LAN with static addresses in the range 192.168.1.60-90. I left the DHCP server enabled and using the default addresses from 192.168.1.100 upwards so that one or two dongles I occasionally use around the office and elsewhere can talk to the network as required but also be usable on other networks where I guessed a static IP address I'd assigned might conflict with something else. Is this the wrong approach and is there a better way along the lines you suggested?
Many thanks,
John
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gatekeeper
- Posts: 167
- Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 4:45 pm
Re: 8800NL stops requiring logon?
Hmm, am not sure how to react to your first answer, especially as (unlike most people, I'd guess) I don't use tabbed browsing. I'd have thought it a bit daft for Billion to have designed the 8800's GUI in such a way that it gets left open for an entire browser session. Maybe you should ask that specific question on this forum? (billionfan seems to be the real expert). What happens if you change your browser from using tabbed browsing to normal window-by-window browsing? When you then open a fresh browser window, does the 8800's disappear?
Concerning your fixed addresses, I'm again no expert on precisely how fixed addressing should be implemented in the 8800. Indeed, I had to discuss at length over a week or more the method for doing it with billionfan before I finally got it right, to suit my particular case. However, I think that basically you've done it correctly, in that it's okay to still have the DHCP server enabled; it's just that you have to be careful about the ranges being used. In my case, I turned off DHCP completely, to make really sure that it couldn't affect my sub-100 addresses. Some people set up a table in the router to 'fix' the addresses ( the ARP Table, I think it's called) but billionfan advised that that wasn't strictly necessary, and he/she appears to be right. In your case, I'd have thought that, to keep things simple, it'd be better to include your dongles in your fixed 60 - 90 range. You could use any addresses in the range 192.168.1.1 - 192.168.1.99, as far as I can see, so that'd give you nearly a hundred to choose from. Have you appropriately configured every single device that should be working on a fixed or DHCP address? It'd be easy to overlook small devices.
Concerning your fixed addresses, I'm again no expert on precisely how fixed addressing should be implemented in the 8800. Indeed, I had to discuss at length over a week or more the method for doing it with billionfan before I finally got it right, to suit my particular case. However, I think that basically you've done it correctly, in that it's okay to still have the DHCP server enabled; it's just that you have to be careful about the ranges being used. In my case, I turned off DHCP completely, to make really sure that it couldn't affect my sub-100 addresses. Some people set up a table in the router to 'fix' the addresses ( the ARP Table, I think it's called) but billionfan advised that that wasn't strictly necessary, and he/she appears to be right. In your case, I'd have thought that, to keep things simple, it'd be better to include your dongles in your fixed 60 - 90 range. You could use any addresses in the range 192.168.1.1 - 192.168.1.99, as far as I can see, so that'd give you nearly a hundred to choose from. Have you appropriately configured every single device that should be working on a fixed or DHCP address? It'd be easy to overlook small devices.
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billion_fan
- Posts: 5398
- Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:30 pm
Re: 8800NL stops requiring logon?
I have tested the issue with IE 11 and a win 7 machine, I close the web browser everytime after logging in (this includes all tabs etc) I attempt to login I am prompted for the username and password everytime, tested 25 timesgatekeeper wrote:Hmm, am not sure how to react to your first answer, especially as (unlike most people, I'd guess) I don't use tabbed browsing. I'd have thought it a bit daft for Billion to have designed the 8800's GUI in such a way that it gets left open for an entire browser session. Maybe you should ask that specific question on this forum? (billionfan seems to be the real expert). What happens if you change your browser from using tabbed browsing to normal window-by-window browsing? When you then open a fresh browser window, does the 8800's disappear?
Concerning your fixed addresses, I'm again no expert on precisely how fixed addressing should be implemented in the 8800. Indeed, I had to discuss at length over a week or more the method for doing it with billionfan before I finally got it right, to suit my particular case. However, I think that basically you've done it correctly, in that it's okay to still have the DHCP server enabled; it's just that you have to be careful about the ranges being used. In my case, I turned off DHCP completely, to make really sure that it couldn't affect my sub-100 addresses. Some people set up a table in the router to 'fix' the addresses ( the ARP Table, I think it's called) but billionfan advised that that wasn't strictly necessary, and he/she appears to be right. In your case, I'd have thought that, to keep things simple, it'd be better to include your dongles in your fixed 60 - 90 range. You could use any addresses in the range 192.168.1.1 - 192.168.1.99, as far as I can see, so that'd give you nearly a hundred to choose from. Have you appropriately configured every single device that should be working on a fixed or DHCP address? It'd be easy to overlook small devices.
Edit- added 25 screen shots I took when attempting to login
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segillum
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- Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:45 am
Re: 8800NL stops requiring logon?
I have tested the issue with IE 11 and a win 7 machine, I close the web browser everytime after logging in (this includes all tabs etc) I attempt to login I am prompted for the username and password everytime, tested 25 times
Interesting. I re-booted my machine and router this afternoon and tried the same. After 11 logins in which it asked for the username and password, it ceased doing so.
John
Interesting. I re-booted my machine and router this afternoon and tried the same. After 11 logins in which it asked for the username and password, it ceased doing so.
John
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billion_fan
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Re: 8800NL stops requiring logon?
Try a different web browser or PC, I can only assume there is something storing your web username and password.segillum wrote:I have tested the issue with IE 11 and a win 7 machine, I close the web browser everytime after logging in (this includes all tabs etc) I attempt to login I am prompted for the username and password everytime, tested 25 times
Interesting. I re-booted my machine and router this afternoon and tried the same. After 11 logins in which it asked for the username and password, it ceased doing so.
John
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gatekeeper
- Posts: 167
- Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 4:45 pm
Re: 8800NL stops requiring logon?
segillum,
I can't recall how I myself set up my username and password for getting into the router's GUI. It may have been a configuration entry during the 8800's Easy Sign On process. So, it might be worthwhile doing a reset of the 8800 and setting it up completely afresh. Remember that you can also change the password at any time. That's to say, there's a configuration setting buried in the 8800 for changing the current password, if you wish. (I've actually used that and I found that if I tried to also change the username, it wouldn't do it. So, as regards username, best to stick with 'admin', and then choose your own complex password).
From the security angle, I'd also advise that, in the 8800, you turn off Remote Management, unless you definitely use that feature. Again, RM is buried in amongst the more advanced settings.
With regard to my old PC, which is on my network but rarely used now, I can vaguely recall that the IE browser would initially throw up the login caption but that within that caption there was an option for either automatic login or manual login. I've always used manual login. Is there the same option on a Win7 or Win 8 machine these days, running IE10/11, and if so, might there possibly be some additional options now?
I can't recall how I myself set up my username and password for getting into the router's GUI. It may have been a configuration entry during the 8800's Easy Sign On process. So, it might be worthwhile doing a reset of the 8800 and setting it up completely afresh. Remember that you can also change the password at any time. That's to say, there's a configuration setting buried in the 8800 for changing the current password, if you wish. (I've actually used that and I found that if I tried to also change the username, it wouldn't do it. So, as regards username, best to stick with 'admin', and then choose your own complex password).
From the security angle, I'd also advise that, in the 8800, you turn off Remote Management, unless you definitely use that feature. Again, RM is buried in amongst the more advanced settings.
With regard to my old PC, which is on my network but rarely used now, I can vaguely recall that the IE browser would initially throw up the login caption but that within that caption there was an option for either automatic login or manual login. I've always used manual login. Is there the same option on a Win7 or Win 8 machine these days, running IE10/11, and if so, might there possibly be some additional options now?